Good evening,
I spotted an interesting post on Paul Bailey's blog here about the resignation from the CAMRA (you've seen the CAMRA) of legendary unspoilt pub hunter Rodney Wolfe Coe.
It struck me that not only does the list he is renowned for compiling, the Classic, basic, unspoilt pubs of Great Britain, link together through its possession a wide range of unspoilt pub lovers over a huge area, but also that of those who have a copy, very few have thought to reprint them online. I think we (sic) are missing a trick.
Of course, there is the issue of whether RWC would mind. Given that his denouncement of CAMRA's dedication to the modern at the expense of the traditional, as its claimed he stated in a letter to Whats Brewing, it seems unlikely that he would have considered making his list an online tool, or that he would stumble across it via Google on a quiet evening. Its still his list though, irrespective of the level of perceived assistance he had in compiling it.
I picked my copy up in the Duke of York in Elton (above) years ago, and have carefully, erm, misplaced it since. I remember there were plenty of pubs I had never visited, but a version I discovered online last year lists plenty I had never even heard of, testimonies to the existence of which linger on only by virtue of the scantest of references in disparate bodies of text across the worldwide web.
More frustratingly, having found a copy of the 1994 list online, the address www.btinternet.com/~stannett/worth-a-visit/old_pubs.htm
no longer works. Having been known to me for a long time its particularly frustrating that I never thought to copy it.
A quick look around the Tinterweb shows a copy of Worcestershire CAMRA's Pint Taken magazine, which, on Page 13 of the Winter 2005 edition mentions a final 11th edition of the list, now featuring just 12 pubs! Since I don't have Word and this is a PDf I have saved what I hope is a "picture" of page 13 which, with any luck, will be shown below. Apologies to Worcester CAMRA if it does work. Apologies to everyone if it doesn't... (there is also a link here )
I don't know how to make the text larger, sorry! |
I wonder therefore, given that the leaflet allegedly started out with over 160 pubs, if anyone would be willing to dig out the editions in their possession and copy them into the blog comments (or better still blog or host them and post the link), or, whether anyone out there knows RWC and would ask for his thoughts on such an idea? It would be fantastic, whatever the route taken, to arrive at having this invaluable picture of our fast disappearing pub heritage in one place.
It would certainly be interesting to find out whether potential inclusions that I also never got to, such as the Lodge at Shirland and Queen Adelaide on Snelston Common, both in Derbyshire, ever made the mark.
Finally, in response to the question posed at the end of Paul Bailey's blog :
of the pubs listed, the Welcome Stranger, Eagle at Skerne, Red Lion at Llandovery, Red Lion at Stoke Talmage, Horse and Trumpet at Medbourne and Seven Stars at Halfway House no longer trade, and the Bath in Cheltenham, Three Tuns in Hay on Wye (now a pub and restaurant, shudder...) and even the Sun at Leintwardine, have had varying levels of change that would or might disbar them from a 2012 list. Hope that helps.
Wee Beefy.
Hi wee beefy, I stumbled upon your excellent blog whilst carrying out research about RWC's list. Like yourself I found a complete dearth of information online about The Classic Basic Unspoilt Pubs of Great Britain, but perhaps this is not surprising given the author's now publicly stated dislike of all types of electronic communication.
ReplyDeleteI have never met Rodney Coe, even though I understand he lives in the Ashford area of Kent, whilst I live in Tonbridge, which isn't a million miles away. However, a few years ago, on a visit to the Red Lion at Snargate, there was a rather eccentric character chatting at the bar who may well have been said gentleman. (He certainly fited the bill!). It's difficult to say whether RWC would mind his list being published online, but whether he does or doesn't I think it's important that this sort of information is recorded somewhere, and where better these days than on the internet?
It's a shame that the link to the 1994 list no longer works, but I did find one from 1995 that I have copied into Word. It lists 32 pubs, as opposed to the 21 on the 1998 list that I published. Unfortunately I didn't make a noet of the link, but hope to publish the list as a follow up on my blog.
Finally, I am pleased to have found your blog, and will enjoy browsing back through some of your previous postings that record your own experiences in this area.
Best Wishes
Paul Bailey
Hello Paul.
ReplyDeletethanks for getting in touch and for your kind words. I suspect that the reality of this may be far less noble than I intended! Nevermind RWC's distaste for the medium, I think his list is a treasure that people across the UK have, in fact, filed away somewhere, much as I have.
There are a dispirate few who have looked in detail at aspects of the list but I honestly think a more likely outcome is that pics could be posted on Flickr. I discussed this idea with Pub Curmudgeon a bit back and to be honest I admit I never really got the idea off the ground. However, in the likely absence of any lists, I at least have some pics of the Hop Pole in Risbury for example.
That said, it will be a long process digging them out and scanning them!
Cheers
WB
Hi - The list in 1997 (4th Ed) was as follows (batched in ascending order of greatness), with acknowledgement to Mr Coe:-
ReplyDeleteDuke of York - Elton, Square & Compass - Worth Matravers, Eagle - Skerne, Welcome Stranger - Herstmonceux, Red Lion - Snargate, North Star - Steventon, Three Tuns - Hay, Cock - Brent Eleigh, Turf Tavern - Bloxwich
Olde Tavern - Kington, Horse & Trumpet - Medbourne,Peyton Arms - Peyton, Red Lion - Stoke Talmage
Red Lion - Llandovery, Red Lion - Ampney St Peters, Hop Pole -Risbury, Star - Netherton, Dyffryn Arms - Pontfaen
Luppitt - Luppitt, Queens Arms - Cowden Pound, Seven Stars - Halfway House
Sun - Leintwardine
I have Edition 5 somewhere; there were certainly no new entries and the lesser entries had dropped off the list.
I've visited 18 of these plus an irritating number of recently closed ones. The Hop Pole left an impact, not altogether pleasant, that only death will shake off. Beer quality ranged from great (Horse & Trumpet, Red Lion at Ampney) to poor (Sun unfortunately). If not blasphemous, I'd say a few have been successfully modernised (the Sun, the North Star, Three Tuns).
The Anchor at High Offley would have a case for inclusion on any list of this sort.
Cheers
Hello there, I hoped you might have some gen, having seen your name on Curmudgeon's related posts in the past.
DeleteFrom the above it seems the list that I am kicking myself for not copying may have been earlier - since it included the Fir Tree at Cornsay Colliery, but also The New Inn at Hadlow Down, and yet not the Hop Pole. Nice to see the Cock at Brent Eligh on there.
I managed to get to Risbury in 1995. Didn't seem too apocalyptic then but I can see how it could have become so. Asked 3 people in different gardens in Risbury where it was - all didn't know for sure and thought it was closed - a good 4 or 5 years before it did.
Thanks for posting the list aswell, every modified version provides a talking point and its interesting to consider why some pubs seem to be missing, only to be added later.
Finally, it may be of interest, I am currently in my own cack handed foggy fashion, researching The Lodge near Stretton in Derbyshire (below, not above it, as my early 2012 post states). Its proving incredibly difficult, not least beacuse I only went once, but as a non beer drinking teenager, during the day. At least most of the pubs on the RWC lists so far can be traced as such. Perhaps The Lodge wasn't supposed to sell beer! I hope to have an update soon.
WB
Re: the Lodge (which I've never heard of), there's a interesting looking building set back from the road just south of Stretton, now a beauty salon called Zest, that looks like a former pub. I'm in Alfreton for football next month so will try to explore !
DeleteGood blog, by the way
Sounds great! Am hoping to head out myself but would warmly appreciate any news. Quite happy to knock on the door if required....
DeleteWB
You can still find that BT Internet website if you look at it with the marvellous Wayback Machine - http://web.archive.org/web/20100725054508/http://www.btinternet.com/~stannett/worth-a-visit/old_pubs.htm
ReplyDeleteCheers! That's brilliant. And just in case the Wayback machine expires or something, here is the list again :
Delete"The Classic Basic Unspoilt Pubs of Great Britain"
This list comes from a copy of a single sheet list identified as "No 46 of a limited edition of 100 RWC/ASHFORD/APRIL 1994", which I was given in a pub in Wales a couple of years ago. So it stands to reason that some these pubs might have disappeared - try ringing them before trekking out... Meanwhile, my apologies to "RWC" for breaching his copyright. I've repeated his original introduction below the list.
One star
Derbyshire Kirk Ireton Barley Mow
Dorset Worth Matravers Square & Compass
Dyfed Llandovery Red Lion
East Sussex Hadlow Down New
Herstmonceux Welcome Stranger
Hampshire Fritham Royal Oak
Hertfordshire High Wych Rising Sun
Kent Snargate Red Lion
Oxfordshire Checkendon Black Horse
Steventon North Star
Stoke Talmage Red Lion
Somerset Faulkland Tuckers Grave
Witham Friary Seymour Arms
Suffolk Brent Eleigh Cock
Two stars
Durham Cornsay Colliery Fir Tree
Gloucestershire Cheltenham Bath Tavern
Hereford & Worcestershire Kington Olde Tavern
Humberside Skerne Eagle
Norfolk Burnham Thorpe Lord Nelson
Northumberland Netherton Star
Three stars
Devonshire Drewsteington Drewe Arms
Dyfed Meidrim Maenllwyd
Ponfaen Dyffryn Arms
Gloucestershire Ampney St Peter Red Lion
Hereford & Worcestershire Risbury Hop Pole
Kent Cowden Queens Arms
North Yorkshire Beck Hole Birch Hall
Powys Llanfihnangel-Yng-Ngwfyna Goat
Four stars
Devonshire Luppitt Luppitt
Gloucestershire Duntisbourne Abbots Five Mile House
Shropshire Halfway House Seven Stars
Five stars (and, thus, probably the best pub in Great Britain)
Hereford & Worcestershire Leintwardine Sun
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RWC's original introduction:
This is not just another list of the Classic British pubs. Many existing lists rely totally on other people's findings. This list is different in that the compiler has personally visited over 80 pubs that possibly warranted inclusion in a definitive list.
Apart from the obvious criteria of being Basic and Unspoilt, all pubs in this list sell Real Ale. Many of the 80+ visited have been "improved" or found to be just not worthy of the description "Basic and Unspoilt". Some, unfortunately, did not sell Real Ale. Sadly, others considered for the list have closed since "inspections" began in May 1993.
The compiler therefore feels that this list could arguably be regarded as the definitive list of the "Classic Basic Unspoilt Pubs of Great Britain". Others may well disagree - especially with the star ratings - which can be only one person's opinion.
In producing this list, the compiler acknowledges the recommendations given by MC, RLC, RD, CJE, JH, TH, DL, RAM and JW.
Priceless!